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Court Etiquette, Forms of Address, and Military Matters

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:48 pm
by Haft
OK, so since Haft got his job back a lot of questions have come up that I've never had to deal with

before. I'm not at all sure what to do in a number of situations regarding bowing, scraping, saluting,

and general obsequiousness. I've done a little medieval research, but it's largely useless, as

everything's been translated and changed and whatnot...So, here's some thoughts, and I'd love


(This is particularly as things relate to the guards, but also applicable in other cases.)

Forms of address:

King: Your Majesty, Majesty, my lord, lord, sire, my liege (Your Grace was used in earlier times. Not

sure if we want to include it)

Referring to a King: His Majesty, the king, King Lune

Prince: Your Highness, Your Royal Highness

Referring to a prince: His Highness, Prince Cor, His Royal Highness

Lord, Lady: my lord, my lady, milord, milady, m'lord, m'lady (I think none of these need to be

capitalized?). Your Lordship, or Your Ladyship might be used if one is being extra formal. While the

rules for whether a woman is addressed in medieval times were not only related to her marriage, but also

to her birth (Meaning Arael, once married, would never be addressed as "Lady Arael" but would be

addressed as "milady"), this is probably overly complicated for Archenland, and I would treat all who

have married into nobility with the same addresses as those born to it.

Referring to a lord or lady: Lord Cole, Lady Avery, His Lordship, Her Ladyship

Knight: Sir, Sir Colin

Referring to a knight: Sir Colin

Referring to the Steward or Chancellor: Is there anything special, like Your Excellency, or are they just

addressed as other lords? If Cole were a Duke, as he probably would have been in the later middle ages,

he would have been "Your Grace", but I don't think that holds here.

A guard, when addressed formally, may be referred to as "Guardsman, Guardswoman, Guardsman Haft, Master

Haft, Mistress Megren" (I've seen "Master" used on a number of occasions ingame, and it /feels/ right,

but I think historically it was for lesser members of the sure.) I've also been

addressing common women I don't know well as "Miss" or "Madam", but there's no real equivalent for

guys...unless "Master" is acceptable for all commoners? I know a little later in history it was reserved

for boys who hadn't come into their majority yet.

And could someone please explain whether Colin and Tyren and Darrin are knights or lords and what's up

with their titles?

Forms of courtesy (Bowing, Kneeling, and Nodding):

You take the knee before the king, but only on rare, formal circumstances (like declaring fealty or

returning from exile, as in Haft's case)

In most other circumstances, if the king gives you his attention, a guard should bow. If he does not

give you his attention, you should blend into the wall and be invisible. Guards aren't meant to be

noticed by royalty or nobility.

For a lord, lady, or knight, a guard should usually bow when addressed. Otherwise, again, stand quietly.

If a knight is friendly with a guard, such as Sir Darrin seems to be with certain guardsmen, a nod may

suffice if the guard is addressed.

Foreign royalty: A guard should bow when addressed, otherwise blend into the wall? (This would be the

courtesy shown Edmund or Lucy or, alas, Roshan...I suppose we have to bow to Roshan?)

Most of these forms of courtesy would also apply to a commoner being addressed by nobility or royalty,

except a female who is not a guard would offer a curtsey rather than a bow. I think Megren bows, and

that seems to work given her profession.

Military Behavior (salutes and standing at attention)

The formal military stance in front of a commanding officer appears to be what modern military calls

parade test, that is, standing with feet slightly apart, hands clasped behind your back. This is not

the same as modern standing at attention.

Salutes: Unsure on this, as I've done it one way but seens others do something else. The modern salute

seems to come from knights tipping their visors up so they could see each other, so I had Haft touching

his brow with a knuckle or back of his hand or something (not the sharp military salute of today). I've

seen others place their fist over their hearts. Perhaps that is more for knights, or maybe it should be

for everyone...thoughts?

Guardsman Regalia:

Probably a light-colored gambeson worn over the soldier's own clothes. Over this would go a pale yellow

tunic with the purple cross of Archenland. Sword belt over this. The gambeson and tunic are not

required to be worn while off-duty. Under all is probably the soldier's own shirt, trousers, and boots.

How the Military is Organized:

The Guard of Anvard is an entity under the command of Captain Garian, who sends his reports directly to

King Lune. The Knights of Anvard are not part of the Guard, but they outrank the Captain, and the

Captain or any member of the Guard will defer to a knight's request in almost any situation, though if a

knight's request is in conflict with the Captain's orders, the guardsman may make the knight aware of

this fact before following the knight's instructions (For example, if Garian orders Haft to stay away

from the kennels, and Sir Colin orders him inside, Haft may obey the knight's orders, but can--and

probably should--inform the knight of the Captain's restriction first.) Both knights and the guard

ultimately answer to the king (Duh).

What do you guys think? What would you change, omit, simplify, correct...?

Re: Court Etiquette, Forms of Address, and Military Matters

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:10 pm
by Tyren
Haft wrote:And could someone please explain whether Colin and Tyren and Darrin are knights or lords and what's up with their titles?

We're both. The three of us are lords by nature of the fact we were born into the ruling houses of our respective townships and thus hold a degree of authority there, and knights by nature of our training and the current capacity we serve in the Anvard Court. 'Sir' tends to be the one used more often, because while we're technically lords, neither are we the ruling lords, nor do we typically act on behalf of the noble families we represent in the manner that Cole, Dar and Tyre do. Ours is usually a more militaristic role rather than diplomatic or political - though that line gets blurred on occasion, at least for myself and Colin for various reasons (and maybe Darrin too, who knows :razz: ).

But really, either is valid and appropriate, and I don't think any of the three of us really quibble much about using one over the other.

Re: Court Etiquette, Forms of Address, and Military Matters

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:21 pm
by Antheia
As Tyren says, either "Lord" or "Sir" is an appropriate address for knight-lords. If you are looking for a hard and fast rule, default to "Lord" for a ruling Lord and for a noble who is not a knight. "Sir" for all others. The most confusing one is Cole/Colin, since Colin is set to inherit Neiklot while Cole will continue to hold chancellorship for the rest of his life, making the ruling Lord not the eldest. Cole is also a knight. I think what is generally accepted is to call Colin "Sir" for now, and to switch to "Lord" when his father dies. My personal preference for Cole is "Sir", but that has as much to do with the musicality of it as anything else. In the books, Shasta refers to the position as "Lord Chancellor" (The quote is "There was a chap called Lord Bar who had been father's Lord Chancellor"). While Shasta does not use it as a form of address, I think it would be acceptable to say "My lord chancellor" in formal settings or to refer to him as "Lord Chancellor Cole" when being particularly respectful. I don't prefer to go with the more obscure forms of address, such as "Your Grace". People get confused enough with the simple stuff, and Archenland isn't snooty enough for us to get into nitty gritty hierarchies (as you have anticipated with the commoners-become-ladies).

Re: Court Etiquette, Forms of Address, and Military Matters

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:40 pm
by Lydia
There are some of these I don't know about, but some I do have notes/opinions on from research and observation.

On titles/forms of address:

Princes: In HHB, there is at least one place where Shasta (mistaken for Corin) is called 'my lord' and 'his lordship' by Edmund. Not sure if this would be employed by people of lower rank, though, or just those of equal/higher rank.

Lords/Ladies: As Anth indicated, we don't distinguish between birth and marriage by forms of address here. Rosalind became Lady Rosalind when she married Lord Barron, the late Lady Estelle was a commoner before she married Lord Drent, and Arael will be Lady Arael after her marriage. On the opposite side of things, even though Astor is noble by birth, he renounced his title and is not called "Lord Astor" now.

Master/Mistress: Used sometimes, I think most consistently for noble children (Master Hart, Mistress Lana). I have also seen it used to show respect for commoners, especially those in more respected econimic/social positions. I don't think it's required for any of the commoners, though.

On bowing, curtseying etc.:

I would agree that guards at their posts probably would stay focused on the job at hand rather than getting distracted to bow unless they are directly approached/addressed. When off duty, however, it would be just like for any other commoner: they rise (if seated) and bow/curtsey whenever one of the nobility enters or leaves the room, is introduced to them, or (in cases of large or outdoor areas) approaches or addresses them. I have seen bows/curtseys omitted in private toward members of the nobility with whom the commoner is very close, or at the noble's request. For instace, I've observed that Arael and Astera, who grew up together, don't use formalities when they are in private, but do when they are in public places. Another example would be Colin and Lanisen.

Also, there's a distinction between nobility in general and royalty (your own or from another country). You bow or curtsey to nobility, whereas to royalty you bow low or curtsey deeply.

On regalia:

I think the tunic you're thinking of would probably be more of a surcoat or tabard, in order to more easily be worn over a gambeson or mail, as is appropriate for the situation. Tunics would probably be worn under the armor. Not sure if guards would wear any other armor under everyday circumstances, or what it would be.

On military structure:

Garian would probably sometimes report to Lune and sometimes to Dar, since Dar oversees the castle staff in his role as Steward. Otherwise, though, I think you've got this right.

Re: Court Etiquette, Forms of Address, and Military Matters

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:19 pm
by Antheia
On bowing/curtsying: a few more thoughts
If you are in a place like the outer ward, where there are a whole bunch of people, you don't need to bow unless the noble acknowledges you/someone in the group you are conversing within. I sort of think of them as having a bubble around them, and when you get into that bubble, you need to bow. Same for King Lune, only his bubble is larger: you probably want to bow and maybe even respectfully stop talking when he comes into your vicinity, even if it is only to talk to someone near you rather than yourself. In a large indoor event, like a feast, the circumstances would be similar to the outer ward, only everyone in the room would bow to Lune when he enters. However, in a very formal event, especially one honoring a particular noble, you would bow when the noble is introduced. Examples might be a knighting ceremony, a lady's presentation ball, or the introduction of a new noble, as through marriage.
Curtsies are meant to accommodate dresses, not occupation. So, it's appropriate for Megren to bow while in livery, but if she were to change into regular clothes, it would be more appropriate to curtsy.

Re: Court Etiquette, Forms of Address, and Military Matters

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:55 pm
by Dalia
In the past when greeting Astor, Dalia has called him Master, (At least in the instance of of one RP as Astera was there.) because she respects him and the nobility what his station was. Think I've heard him also called Master Inkeeper.